Demons. OP. Regen. WTF.

Discussion in 'Suggestions and Complaints' started by smalltanuki, Oct 9, 2014.

  1. smalltanuki
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    Who decided to make Demons fireballs REGENERATE? DO YOU KNOW HOW EASY IT IS TO CAMP NOW?
     
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  2. Palmiet
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    Agreed. Nerf or change to donor class. This has gotten out of hand. For example, I just played a game with 2 demons. I was soldier. They decided to team and build a fortress way up. They relentlessly through fire balls at me the entire game and kept spawn killing me. They never ran out. I kept getting spawn killed and stuff. The problem was my grenades couldn't reach as high as they were. This is pretty much one of the most OP classes at the moment, and isn't even exclusive.

    EDIT: I can't fly in Exiled.
     
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  3. mattvision09
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    I remember the change log either said you can deflect them now, or you used to be able to but now you can't. It's best being able to deflect them, that is a crutial part in combating these guys, especially in camping scenarios, but I do think the fireball regen is necessary.

    Now that the class is worth using, everyone shits on the wall about how OP it is.
     
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  4. _AEon
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    Demon Fireballs are NOT OP.

    Fireballs have a 1 sec cd and tend to explode on collision AND have a spread

    in comparision with soldier:

    Snowballs:

    - no spread (-> precise aim)
    - no collision
    - knockback (on hit)
    - direct hit causes instant kill on < iron armor
    - 0.5 instead of 1 sec cd
    - 2 instead of 5 sec regeneration
    - max 6 instead of max 3 (regeneration)

    additionally Demon has way weaker armor and weapons.

    You can only get hit by Fireballs if you sleep while fighting or don't know how to move since the delay between 2 Fireballs is too big (at least in camping cases).

    Also, Teamers win most of the time, try 1v1 demon vs soldier.

    and this should go to LOB suggestions, not to general suggestions & complaints

    If you don't believe me you can proof it to me tomorrow if you want ;)

    @epicgod999 almost every class can spawnkill with ease due to your "dirt loading screen" before you spawn (it's dirt with default TP...) for example: brawler, soldier, demo man, archer, sniper (from far away, if they know your spawn point), every class with strong melee weapons (at least against low amored classes), every class with explosives, engineer
     
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  5. brasil2908
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    I would make it so the fireballs could be reflected, but besides that just keep on moving. When was the last time a ghast killed you?

    (If recently, go relearn Minecraft)
     
  6. _AEon
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    Making fireballs reflectable would need to make them spammable, too (which is much worse IMO).
     
  7. mattvision09
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    Demon fireballs don't have any cool down. Soldiers have at least a 1.5-2 second cool down. Nerd.

    I remember the early days of BM2, when soldiers could just hold down right click and throw grenades indefinitely. That shit was frustrating.
     
  8. toamini
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    A class is only over powered if you know how to use it CORRECTLY (except creeper class). If you don't then you'll think that the class is stupid and never play as it again. What the admins had done is make playing as demon easier to master, making the class playable.
     
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  9. voiredire
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    Compared to soldier grenades, fireballs:

    - are not affected by gravity (snowball curve is consistent, but difficult for humans to judge at various angles, ranges, and elevations without lots of practice)

    - have infinite range (spread is a fixed random spread and can be taken into account when choosing what distance to engage from)

    - explode instantly (no delay between hit and explosion)

    - do not hurt the demon firing them (a demon can drop a fireball straight down in a pinch and do almost instant AoE explosive damage that will one-shot assassination classes like nightcrawler and squishy classes like medic, archer, sniper, or DJ if the DJ's armor is low)

    - immolate the area around the point of impact, doing additional damage over time from fire ticks

    - can be used to zone out opponents by taking advantage of both the craters created by the explosions and the lingering fires, denying safe access to areas

    - are equally effective at sniping from above and below

    By comparison, soldier's grenades cannot take out an enemy stacked up above the battlefield, while a demon can easily bombard an opponent attempting to snipe from above, and are not as good at long-range area denial. Yes, a soldier might be better at close-quarters or medium range combat, or in deathmatch, but face a competent demon in payload and tell me how far you get the cart when it's being bombarded every 5 seconds and the landscape around it is being set on fire.
     
  10. _AEon
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    1x1 pillars -> bow

    explosion delay and flying angle are things you can calculate, spread not

    @mattvision09 cooldown has changed from 0 to 1 second.
     
  11. voiredire
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    Why would you ever build a 1x1 pillar? You quickly build a pillar while nobody is looking, then build a platform with walls. They can get pretty elaborate depending on how many spare building blocks you have. And most people can't calculate the effect of gravity on snowballs and the proper angle to use for a given range and elevation difference. Spread is simple. Take potshots until you get the results you want. Also, the explosion radius is ~4 blocks so you don't have to be extremely precise. As to the last time you got hit by a ghast, ghasts aim completely differently from humans, you can deflect the fireballs, and they are usually at extremely long range (up to 100 blocks, whereas the entire length of cobicolors, for reference, is 46 blocks) In addition, explosion delay means that even if you line up a perfect shot, it is entirely possible to move out of the explosion radius before the actual explosion.
     
  12. toamini
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    Uhm, you're going to run out of arrows quickly, it is only 10 arrows.
     
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  13. _AEon
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    then stack up by yourself, most arenas aren't that high (because they have a region), and the fireball spread is big enough that it is safe to stack up

    and @voiredire, you everytimes have a 1x1 pillar before you have a base and noobs build 1x1 pillars most of the times only. Additionally once they have a platform, they don't have 360 degree sight without moving, which gives you advantage in sneaking up and attacking by yourself.
     
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  14. mattvision09
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    I don't think anyone mentioned that demons can't throw more than one fireball at a time. With soldiers, the time between the snowball detonating and the snowball being thrown is equal to the time it takes for it to regenerate, but with demons, you have to wait for it to hit before you can throw another.

    Aiming snowballs is not rocket science. Nor is it collage algebra, and unless you are programming a bot to throw them at a precise target, it's not quadratics. Arrows have the same technique with them, but they are faster and less effected by gravity, so there really is nobody with <70 IQ points that has trouble throwing a fucking snowball. So I guess that means voiredire might have some issues.
     
  15. smalltanuki
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    Still annoying,
     
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  16. tidag
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    you said that it was OP, not annoying....
     
  17. smalltanuki
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    Both of em'.
     
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  18. brasil2908
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    This is complete proof that demons are not OP.





    (ahem sarcasm ahem)
     
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  19. _AEon
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    #spawncamping
    #enemyplaysknockbackagainstrange
    #nospacefordodging
    #mid-range-fighting
    #teamgame (demon is op here, because no explosion team-damage)

    VERY situational.

    It's almost like brawler vs archer if the archer sits in a corner.

    BTW: I would have teleported behind you as nightcrawler while you are still walking on the hill trying to get down to the entrance instead of waiting for you to be able to kill me.

    Demon COUNTERS all low armor and classes relying completly on melee or mid-range attacks.

    Demon IS COUNTERED by all classes with on-use special abilities (yes, each and every), in long range fights, in FFA (balls damage self) and basically classes, which are able to teleport (get to demon, dodge balls, get better position (unseen from demon if possible), generally on big maps (against ranges).

    Coclusion:

    For FFA:

    Demon gets countered by:

    Sniper (unseen after position changed, arrow flight alpha evades straight fireball flight), Nightcrawler, Archer (if unseen), Demo man (fire & explosion immunity), Pyro (fire immunity, prot boots, needs to evade until close or sneak up), indian (fireball inaccurrancy), zeus (infinite range & better accurrancy & not blocked by fireball), DJ (global range, exception: jukeboxes get destroyed), soldier (grenades not deflected by fireballs), Wile E. Coyote (very high armor, infinite range, not blocked by fireballs (Note: unreliable because of slight inaccurrancy of anvils because stressed under heavy fire)), creeper (if unseen, useless in DM), Vampire (if sneaks up, darkness or enderpearl surprise)

    Theoretically.

    Demon counters:

    Necromancer, Medic, Archer (if seen, deflects arrows), Sniper (if seen/mid-close range, deflects arrows), Nightcrawler (if no sneak attack or not dodging fireballs with teleport), Pyro (direct hits), Indian (direct hit, deflects arrows, close range), zeus (close range), DJ (close range, destroys jukeboxes), Wile E. Coyote (kiting in close-mid range), Creeper (onehit), Vampire (onehit), Engineer (knockback, no melee damage, turrets get destroyed)

    Unreliable:

    Warrior, Demon, Low-armor-classes without escape or sneak/teleport attack mechanisms
     
  20. brasil2908
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    Uh, if you didn't notice I was throwing fireballs right at my feet and it did little to no damage. Yes it is situational. I am going to try to get some gameplay of me fighting against a demon. WSR1 isn't the best of PVPers as well. BUT, the main point of the video is just to show how it destroys most non-donor classes. I believe that I only died once or twice, completely shutting him out in a payload map (yes, camping their spawn is sort of the point in that gametype).

    BUT, I also agree with you that it is VERY situational and that it can be proved wrong as well.
     

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